This is a response to a post from Steve Pavlina where he shows some cruel practices against chicks in the egg industry. You can see the video here.
That post raised a lot of attention, at the point that I decided to give my public reply here. I suggest you to watch the video and read the post before continuing.
So, he basically says that if you eat eggs, you are actively supporting those practices and you are comparable to a nazi. Here are his words:
“Realize that if you eat eggs, you’re actively and directly supporting practices like this. This video is actually pretty mild compared to what happens to the hens.”
First, comparing egg eaters with nazis is one of the worst things I ever read. I can understand that for people living in America, WWII may look like an old and very far fact, but trust me, our grands here lived such facts directly and I can assure you that if you draw a swastica in Italy, you’ll be arrested (at least it’s the law). But it’s ok, I guess he has the right to talk about everything.
That also means that if you ever ate one single egg you are responsible for what happened in industries like the one shown in the video. But of course this does not make any sense: chances are that you were not aware of those practices until now, so how can I call you a nazi? Seriously.
He went by describing all the reasons that you are bad, even if you produce eggs yourself (My grands do), because if you go to a restaurant you can’t be sure that if you eat something, it’s not made with eggs. He is exaggerating now.
As far as I know, everything that you eat or dress has the potential of having been made using cruel practices. And if you think that vegans are the exception, think again, in particular, think about all the ‘insecticides’ used to preserve your fresh fruit/vegetables, are the insects happy to be intoxicated? But what if you are so lucky to control even the vegetables you eat? Well… Aren’t you killing small organisms when you walk to bring the fruit to your table. Aren’t you killing insects when you drive your car? Ok, it is ridiculous, but compare this with what he says. What is the difference between killing chicks, and killing insects with cruel practices? There’s no difference of course.
Let’s talk about the other side. Assume that you decide to stop eating eggs because you saw that video, are you solving the problem? Or are you becoming more selfish by releasing your responsibility to someone else? Let’s be clear here: the wrong fact it’s not eating eggs, the wrong fact it’s that particular industry which uses those methods. So instead of focusing on your selfish emotions, try to stop that practices in some way instead of turning your head to the other side.
Either way, I’m not ok with those practices and I would not eat an egg if I knew it was made that way.
Here’s a tip for you: the next time you see a video like that, try to focus your attention to the real problem, not the one suggested by the marketer behind it.
What do you think? Leave a comment below
Update
See the comments below for continuation of this discussion.
Posted on September 03 2009
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[…] wrote a response here Response To Modern-Day Nazis – Freestyle Mind __________________ Oscar Del Ben Blog: Personal Development Twitter: […]
There’s a difference between killing insects with insecticides and killing chicken that are raised in a factory. The insect lead a normal life until it got killed, whereas the chicken was born in the factory, where it is tortured and has to suffer pretty much 24/7. I am talking about highly industrialized chicken farming here
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i’m not a big fan of sensationalism, if steve is making a point, he can well enough leave painful memories out of it.
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You make a bunch of really good points. This is something that I think and talk about alot. Looking at actual problems and trying to solve them, instead of blaming an action or behavior down the line from the problem, or bandaging the ‘problem.’
This is something we see a lot of in the West, and it comes down to a failure on our part to look at the source of issues. You’re right, eating eggs is not the problem, indeed is not a problem at all. You want to fix it, you buy eggs from the store from certified farm-raised organic free-range chickens. They’re more expensive, because it costs a lot more to treat animals well, but they also support the transformation of the industry.
I find it interesting that you bring up vegans, and their often superior belief that they are better people for not supporting the exploitation of animals. You make a good point in regards to the insecticides and poisons used to ensure a good harvest (which affect the plants themselves as well).
But there’s another aspect here. Life comes from death. We survive by ingesting the matter of other living things, or things that were once living. Often the fruit we eat is still alive. We easily ignore that we are killing it because, unlike cows, it can’t express pain, but the truth is we are slaughtering and ending the lives of the plants we eat just as surely as we are slaughtering chickens and cows and swine.
One could argue that our method of growing crops is inhumane, since given natural reign the plants would grow in a very different manner. They would take more space between themselves and their neighbors, and grow taller and die on their own, leaving their fertile matter for their own descendants to grow upon. While I don’t advocate a massive overhaul of the farming industry (at least not to the extent that we need an overhaul of the slaughter industry), it’s important that we be aware of our actions in many levels, not just the most obvious.
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I think your are right. When I saw that post on Steve Pavlina’s blog my respect for him dropped dramatically. Using such powerful words is too much. He does that to make himself feel better and higher above other people.
It’s like saying that you are a Nazi because you like racing cars, and racing cars pollute and kill the environment.
Of course nobody is happy about the fact that this is happening. This is a problem created from the industrialization of the world. You want to move away from the city and grow your own food to reduce your foot print on the earth’s surface? Be my guest. Otherwise let’s find better solutions rather then calling people such a terrible word.
Although I can see how using the word Nazis may push some people to rethink what they are doing with their life.
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Here is something I saw a while back:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKTsWjbjQ8E
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I actually saw your post on Steve’s site just now Oscar. Having been a vegetarian for some time now, (as it’s a common topic on my site) all I can say is sometimes the truth hurts. I’m sure you noticed just how many people he riled up with that post, and how many people complained about his “tone” being degrading, yet regardless of all that, the facts are still there.
A lot of people I think get upset when the truth hits them in the face and they realize what they’ve been doing maybe wasn’t the most moral thing. Nobody is perfect, and nobody is going to be born KNOWING the consequences of all their actions. I too, like a lot of people here, ate meat and eggs at one point in my life.
The question then is: When you learn the truth, will you react to it, or will you hide from it and pretend it never existed?
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Actually I was wanting to be a little offended by Steve’s post it was clearly meant to be. Then it became funny as it is just more evidence of his descent into madness.
Admittedly I think it is bad for the person doing the killing and it is sad that they aren’t creative enough to do something useful with those chicks but let’s take this another way.
If we destroy Big Chicken, that means more people out of work.
It also means much fewer eggs, and if you have been following the flu at all you would know that eggs are needed to culture the vaccine. Big Phama is already complaining about not being able to get enough eggs to be able to supply enough vaccine for this fall.
Not enough vaccines means it gets rationed to people with power, influence or money.
Preventable diseases will make a comeback and start killing people, mostly poor people of course. Most poor people are black, therefore it is racist not to eat eggs.
Same logic, different results, isn’t that interesting.
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Here’s my two cent. The problem is not with eating eggs or chicken. The problem is how the industry torture these chickens.
Personal note: Oscar, add me at twitter so we can chat through direct message bro :)
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I recently watched the documentary, “Our Daily Bread” and was actually surprised at how well the animals were treated in Europe anyway.
I am not a vegetarian, but I do try to limit my consumption of meat. Not so much for humanitarian grounds but for health reasons. I feel better when I eat less meat and dairy products. However, I do like a good steak once in a while.
Also, animals raised in close quarters can spread disease and viruses. Our domestication of animals may just lead to our downfall one of these years.
Whether or not you are a meat eater, I think it is worthwhile to acknowledge that human evolution, in particular the size of our brains, occurred because of our consumption of meat. The use of fire to cook the meat and make it more digestable also played a role. From an evolution perspective, if we didn’t consume meat we would still be swinging from trees.
I have heard people link meat eating to a form of barbarianism like slavery. The idea is that society has matured enough to universally end slavery and someday we will have the same realization about eating meat.
I am not sure if I buy that argument but it is interesting to think about. One thing for sure, this vegetarian debate is limited primarily to richer English speaking countries. It is these same countries that consume more, pollute more and often impose their imperialistic motives on the rest of the world.
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Hey O!
I just read steve’s post, and it does seem a little offensive but I don’t really feel anything about him calling us Nazis. Of course with so many fans it’s a touchy subject but I think Steve feels strongly about it and thus expressed his views a bit over the top.
I never knew this happened, but people in this world are bad. There is a lot of stuff going on that the public doesnt know about, because people won’t support this kind of cruelty.
The problem is, people don’t work together.
This chicken thing is one problem, what about the overfishing problem. If everyone ate less tune and fish, then species and regions wouldnt get overfished and even die out.
I think its good to spread awareness about this, but now Im not so sure how Im going to feel the next time I have an egg..
Thanks for your response!
Diggy
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Hi Oscar,
I did see Steve’s post a few days ago and I was pretty disgusted with what I saw on the video. While the word Nazi is a bit strong (and I believe used intentionally to catch attention), I do agree with the reasoning behind using the word. Steve knows how to bring attention to his blog and causes. The proof is in the pudding – he is the top blog on personal development.
You’re right: if a few people stop eating eggs because of the video, it doesn’t directly solve the problem. However, there is a power in numbers. More people do need to be aware of this in order for something to change, whether it is less people eating meat or treating the animals humanely. The reason why I never even entertained the thought of going veg or of protesting animal cruelty is because I didn’t know how bad it was. Trust me, with the information overload going on these days, it is tough to get anyone’s attention by being meek and politically correct about an issue. Doesn’t make it right, but that’s what humans react to. Why do you think the media has such a stronghold on people even though everyone knows it is a ratings whore?
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Hi Oscar
Great discussion. I saw that video link on twitter a few days ago and didn’t look at it as I love eggs and I’ve become vegatarian at the beginning of the year and didn’t want to think about not eating eggs and what happens to those little chicks! I since tried to but haven’t managed to download the video (my internet connection is being intermittent) but did pass it on as I think it is good to be aware (even if it’s difficult). I didn’t feel offended by Steve’s post…it’s strong wording but I personally like that sometimes, when I think it’s needed. I agree eating eggs per se isn’t bad but I do think not eating them could be a good way of voting with our feet.
Thanks for this post
Jen
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I agree with you mostly. Although I feel that the root of the problem is the mass producing of our food. I will try not to go to far into detail because this is a debate without an definite answer. On one hand without such practices it may be impossible to feed the millions (if not billions)of people across the world that these companies provide for. However the mass production of not only animals but plants and vegetables as well, decreases their nutritional value as well as provides little room for compassion for the animals that feed us or even consideration for the safety of the chemicals and toxins used in the process. The food industry is actually a pretty nasty business once you get to see the inner workings of it. Where did you think those chicken nuggets came from anyway? I guarantee you they were no volunteers. The only solution is not boycott of one particular food item, such as eggs or meat at all. The solution is finding a localized, sustainable food source and whenever possible grow it yourself. Removing yourself from the mass production food chain is the only way to stop practices you don’t agree with.
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Hey Oscar,
I’m so glad that you wrote a response post to his video. While I totally don’t agree with inhumane treatment of animals, I also don’t agree with someone else forcing their views upon me.
I watched the whole video, and while it does make me want to be a vegan, the reality is I am not (and don’t really want to be). I try and buy free range eggs, whenever possible…. but I think Jon’s comment about this being an issue for rich English speaking countries really fascinating. That is so true- we have the luxury of worrying about this, while so many other people would be grateful for some fresh eggs.
Did you see that Steve Pavlina had the comments turned off on his post? Cheers to you for responding to the topic, and starting a discussion about it.
Karen
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I think a writer can, like Steve did here, lost some credibility by make comparisons like that. When I see something like what he wrote, I immediately think “link bait.” He could have made his point without resorting to hyberbole.
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I think that’s incredibly sick. Especially the part about burning off the chicks’ beaks with laser beams—imagine the overwhelming pain. Not to mention being grinded or scolded while still living.
Still, it’s pretty hard to convince people to give up all meat whatsoever. That’s not likely to happen any time soon. I think the main action that needs to be taken is to make sure those animals die as painlessly as possible.
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Hi Tim and welcome. Of course that treatment is sick, but I would rather convince people not use those practices.
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Hi, Oscar. Thanks for bringing this to my attention – I hadn’t seen Steve’s post yet.
One point about killing insects – if you’re eating organic fruits and vegetables, they’re not treated with insecticides.
I think a lot of egg eaters would be outraged if only they knew what was going on. I think there must be a middle ground, like we can continue to eat eggs, but we insist that the animals not be abused in such a way. In exchange for this, we’d accept that we’d have to pay more to the companies that follow humane (but less profitable) practices.
I see your point about Hitler carrying more emotional weight in Italy than in the U.S. Over here, Hitler is commonly used as an example of an evil person, and no one is really bothered by these comparisons, at least not that I’ve heard from the people I talk to. Even if you were to use the recent example of Osama bin Laden, I think that would cause less offense here than a Hitler reference would over there.
Let me ask you, do you think it would have been effective enough if Steve had simply shown the video and made some tame comments without using any Hitler references, exaggeration, guilt trips, etc?
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No, but I’m not offend by that comparison, although many people are because they feel manipulated. Anyway you said something:
“One point about killing insects – if you’re eating organic fruits and vegetables, they’re not treated with insecticides.”
We can do the same with eggs for example. I personally eat eggs produced at my home, but Steve says that if you ever eat an egg you are supporting those practices because you can’t be 100% sure of their origins. So you can’t be 100% sure about insects either, which is ridiculous I know.
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I think that a by-product of living is the death of other organisms. I agree that we should try to minimise a somewhat perceived suffering wherever possible, but advocates of extreme labelling like Steve are definitely being a bit shortsighted.
If so called life lovers want a sure fire of causing no suffering, the only rational solution is to kill yourself. Naturally that’s too extreme for them and us. So basically there are only degrees of caring about the issue. If everyone could at least agree to that… Nobody has the right really to tell someone that they are a mass murdering one testicled abomination who systematically tried to wipe out a race of people, simply because they eat eggs.
In many cases, its the ones who shout out and label who feel the guiltiest. Perhaps because they feel powerless? Personal development shouldn’t get that personal…
btw I really like your blog.
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Hi Joe and welcome.
I agree with what you said, and I would like to add that if you eat less meat to eat more vegetables, you are moving the problem somewhere else, but not solving it.
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“If people experience an emotional reaction when I attempt to challenge their beliefs, it’s a sign they’ve still got some “stuff in the basement” to work through (denial, hidden guilt, regret, etc)." – Steve Pavlina.
I think Steve has some stuff in the basement that is unfortunately making its way to the front door. Arrogance stemming from ones beliefs is perhaps one of the biggest personal development challenges any human can face or try to overcome. Perhaps it makes me subjectively feel better inside that I have at least overcome this and Steve yet hasnt…? What do you think?
To assume that an emotional reaction is an indicator that Steve Pavilna’s beliefs are absolutely correct and are in some way “challenging” the person of lesser emotional intelligence is quite insulting. I sincerely hope Steve gets back on track on his own personal development journey without loosing too many followers.
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Hey Joe,
I think indeed that he has some beliefs that are driving his decisions and actions. I would call them obsession.
For me obsession is only a limit, or a method and it doesn’t matter if he’s right or wrong because a limit is always bad from a personal development perspective.
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I have been reading Steve’s blog for a while, and participating in the forums. Like many other people here, I also think he was way out of line with that post. For some people the word Nazi does hold painful memories (my grate-grandpa was a prisoner of the Nazis as well), and to compare an egg-eater with them is ludicrous. What was he thinking?
I have to say one thing: when I first started my personal development journey, long before I found Steve’s blog, I’ve decided there’s one thing that I cannot tolerate, and that’s fanaticism/absolutism of any kind. And Steve has shown me with this article that he is someone I would not want to be, or would respect/admire. It’s easy to become a fanatic when you become so absorbed with your believes.
That being said, there are many many things I don’t agree with in this world. I adore animals and it hurts me deeply when I see them suffering. But Steve, with his article, has totally changed my mind about him. He’s no longer the kind, gentle “guru”, if you wish, that I hoped he was.
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Hey LV Generation, I think he maybe was just trying to shake a lot of people. He sure received a lot of visits. Unfortunately he used a subject which was not appropriate for many. Thanks for your comment ;)
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